Just because you can describe how something works or how would something behave in nature under certain conditions accurately, does not necessarily mean that there is a creator of the universe that made those laws come to existence.

Almost all apologists for major theistic religions along with almost all creationists claim that things in nature behave the way they do because they follow laws that cannot have existed without some kind of intelligent designer creating all the laws of nature for nature to be what nature is in our currently existing universe. And they always wonder from where did the laws of the universe and all the laws of physics ‘come from’. And they always seem to consider failure to find an answer to such question to be a sound proof that there’s a creator of the universe who has made those laws come to being. Laws of nature – including all the laws of physics – are not something that requires to be created or made. All laws of nature – including all the laws of physics – are not something that could have been different if they weren’t what they are in our currently existing universe. It is not that the laws of nature or the laws of the universe – including all the laws of physics – can’t have existed on their own without a creator. It is that the laws of nature, all the laws of the universe, and all the laws governing anything in this currently existing universe – including all the laws of physics – are not entities in and of themselves, and are not things themselves. These laws are not things that require to be created like the universe itself if the universe itself required a creator to exist. None of these laws need to come from somewhere or someone. They don’t need a creator. They are laws because they describe how something behaves, not because they indicate that someone must have enforced those laws in order to make everything behave the way it already does. These laws all exist, because this is how things are, not because this is how someone made them to be, whether these things (what these laws govern or control) like it or not. 

They cannot have been otherwise. They are just what things happened to be. They are not stuff that requires to be made. They are not made up stuff. They are just findings. We do not invent the laws of nature, we discover them.

If they are arguing that these are properties that god has put in the stuff he created, then this is another topic. When we speak of things like Gravity, it isn’t something that God has put in the contents of the universe, it is something that happens to the contents of the universe. If God is the one that has made gravity happen, with certain laws, then gravity would be something that is dependent upon something that God does on a regular basis. Things can escape gravity or avoid the effects of gravity if it weren’t for something that God has put in them in order for them to behave this way that is in accordance to the phenomenon or theory of gravity. Remove that thing, and there will no longer be any gravity left. This would mean that this thing that makes gravity happen or take place can be isolated.

If gravity is happening because of God, or because of something God does or did to the universe or what’s in it, then this is direct interference from God, and this should be detectable, even if we cannot detect it yet. This is something that is distinct from the laws of gravity. It is some kind of force, not just a law at this point. 

God can create gravity itself, but God cannot create the laws of gravity, because if he did, it means that gravity will happen and behave on its own whether God is doing something to make gravity happen or not, and gravity will happen and behave the way it does according to the laws of gravity whether God exists or not, and whether God likes it or not.

Something being a natural law, or a law of physics, means it’s not up to a creator of the universe to make it happen, or make it happen one way or the other in particular. If it behaves according to whatever God wants, then it wouldn’t be a law. Only action taking.

God will be bound by the laws of gravity, and if this is the case, then God cannot make gravity happen or behave in any way outside of or that contradicts with any of these laws or without following these laws, or else they wouldn’t need to be considered laws.

The laws of gravity do not make gravity happen, they just describe the fact or natural phenomenon of gravity, they do not set gravity in motion, they do not operate gravity, they do not turn gravity on, and they do not make gravity happen. They just show us how gravity happens or how gravity affects anything. To create laws for something is to restrict its behavior in a certain way that makes it cannot behave in any other way whatsoever, whether it likes it or not, whether it wants to or not.

Why would any all-powerful entity put restrictions upon what he’s allowed to do or not do in his own universe or concerning whatever that he has created?

Laws are not an operating system or manual that makes things in nature work the way they do.

If God directly makes gravity happen, then gravity will not be following any laws of physics, but instead will be following the will of god, and will be possible to behave in ways that do not follow any particular set of laws. God would do whatever he wants with the force of gravity, apply it anywhere on anything the way he wants without any of this being possible to be described by any set of laws. That is, without his behavior being possible to be explained by any scientific theory or follow any kind of scientific or natural law whatsoever. If God created laws, it would mean that God is restricting his abilities for no reason other than to mislead scientists who value evidence, or it would mean that gravity would do everything it does with or without God existing in the first place, which would mean that God would have no authority or control over gravity to the extent that God would not be able to prevent gravity from leading to something that God himself does not want to happen. Laws are not programming that makes the universe work the way it works. Laws are just a description of how the universe works, without these laws – of physics or anything else natural – making the universe work the way the universe works and without these laws doing anything to the universe that makes the universe or anything in it behave a certain way or the other, and without the laws of the universe forcing the universe or anything in it to do anything or behave a certain way rather than another, because the laws of the universe told or commanded the universe or anything in it to do so.

Laws are just a description of what happens, not the author of what happens.

Why would the existence of the possibility to have an accurate description of what happens be evidence for the existence of a creator of the universe?

Most of all major theistic religions’ apologists and also all creationists as well claim that things in nature behave the way they do because they follow laws that cannot have existed without some kind of intelligent designer creating all the laws of nature for nature to be what nature is in our currently existing universe (and they always wonder from where did the laws of the universe and all the laws of physics ‘come from’). Laws of nature – including all the laws of physics – are not something that requires to be created or made. All laws of nature – including all the laws of physics – are not something that could have been different if they weren’t what they are in our currently existing universe. It is not that the laws of nature or the laws of the universe – including all the laws of physics – can’t have existed on their own without a creator. It is that the laws of nature and all the laws of the universe and all the laws of everything in this currently existing universe – including all the laws of physics – are not entities themselves, and are not things themselves, and so the laws of nature and all the laws of the universe and all the laws of everything in this currently existing universe – including all the laws of physics – are not things that require to be created (as all major and minor theistic religions claim) like the universe itself if the universe itself required a creator to exist. The laws of nature and all the laws of the universe and all the laws of everything in this currently existing universe – including all the laws of physics – did not come from (somewhere which is claimed by all major and minor theistic religions and all religious apologists and creationists to be) god or else the laws of nature and all the laws of the universe and all the laws of everything in this currently existing universe – including all the laws of physics – must have all come to exist without a god through some other cause(s) or reason(s) that has (or have) nothing to do with any god whatsoever (through somewhere or somehow that has nothing to do with any god whatsoever) and the laws of nature and all the laws of the universe and all the laws of everything in this currently existing universe – including all the laws of physics – must have all come to exist without a god through some other cause(s) or reason(s) that exist(s) without a god existing and without a god making that cause or reason exist (or those causes or reasons exist) as well. The laws of nature and all the laws of the universe and all the laws of everything in this currently existing universe – including all the laws of physics – are all existing because they have to, and because they are, and because the laws of nature and all the laws of the universe and all the laws of everything in this currently existing universe – including all the laws of physics – can never be and can never have been anything else (whatsoever), no matter what (at least in our currently existing universe). They are just what things happened to be. They are not stuff that requires to be made. They are not made up stuff. They are just findings. If they are arguing that these are properties that god has put in the stuff he created, then this is another topic. When we speak of things like Gravity, it isn’t something that God has put in the contents of the universe, it is something that happens to the contents of the universe. If god is the one that has made gravity happen, with certain laws, then gravity would be something that is dependent upon something that god does on a regular basis. If god is making gravity happen all the time, where is what god does to make gravity happen? If gravity is happening because of god, then this is direct interference from god in the universe, and this should be detectable, even if we cannot detect it yet. This is something that is distinct from the laws of gravity. God can create gravity itself, but god cannot create the laws of gravity because if he did, it means that gravity will happen and behave on its own whether god is doing something to make gravity happen or not, and gravity will happen and behave the way it does according to the laws of gravity whether god exists or god doesn’t exist. The laws mean god cannot make gravity happen or behave without obeying these laws, or while using other laws. God will be bound by the laws of gravity, and if this is the case, then god cannot make gravity happen or behave in any way outside of these laws or without following these laws of gravity. The laws of gravity do not make gravity happen, they just describe the fact or natural phenomenon of gravity, they do not set gravity in motion, they do not operate gravity, they do not turn gravity on, and they do not make gravity happen. They just show us how gravity happens. To create laws for something is to restrict its happening to a certain way, not to make that thing exist or happen according to whatever god wants, unless what god wants is to restrict what he can actually reach through his creation of gravity, that is, unless god wants to limit what he can accomplish through the gravity that he has created, and make the possibilities of what God can achieve through gravity lesser and restricted to the gravity laws he created. If god directly makes gravity happen, then gravity will not be following any laws of physics, but instead will be following the will of god, and will be possible to behave in ways that do not follow any particular set of laws. God would do whatever he wants with the force of gravity, apply it anywhere on anything the way he wants without any of this being possible to be described by any set of laws. If god created laws, it would mean that god is restricting his abilities for no reason other than to mislead scientists who value evidence, or it would mean that gravity would do everything it does with or without god existing in the first place, which would mean that god would have no authority or control over gravity to the extent that god would not be able to prevent gravity from leading to something that god himself does not want to happen. Laws are not programming that makes the universe works the way it works. Laws are just a description of how the universe works, without these laws – of physics or any laws – making the universe work the way the universe works and without these laws doing anything to the universe to make the universe do anything and without these laws make the universe reach anything because the laws of the universe told the universe to reach that outcome, and without these laws making the universe do anything because the laws of the universe told the universe to do this thing whatever this thing is, and without the laws of the universe forcing the universe to do anything because the laws of the universe told the universe to do so. Laws are just a description of what happens, not the author of what happens. Why would the existence of the possibility to reach the description of what happens be evidence for the existence of a creator of the universe?

Welp, it’s not gonna create itself.

If a God that could’ve created the universe can exist without a creator, and without having been created by an uncreated creator, or a created creator, and without having been caused by an uncaused cause, or a caused cause, then so could the currently existing universe come to existence, exist, or keep existing without a creator, and without having been created by an uncreated creator, or a created creator, and without having been caused by an uncaused cause, or a caused cause.

If nothing can by itself create itself, including the universe, then also even a God cannot create himself. If nothing could exist without having a prior cause to it or to its existence, then also no God could exist without having been caused or created.

If everything requires a creator to exist, then who created the creator? If not everything requires a creator to exist, then God could exist without a creator, and so could the universe. Why would God be the only exception to the rule? Why can’t the universe or anything whatsoever that is inside the universe ever be an exception to the rule as well?

The universe could also come to existence without being created by any God.

This isn’t to say that the universe created itself, but this is to say that whatever that can apply to God can also apply to and be the case with the universe and anything that’s in it or anything whatsoever that could be in the universe.

This does not necessarily mean that the universe instead was created by itself or by an entity that is inside the universe, is not distinct from the universe, is not outside the universe, or is a part of the universe. But if it can happen with God, it can happen with the universe. And if it cannot happen with God, then it can’t happen with the universe as well. But we are certain we exist. Therefore the other assumption that there is a God must be impossible or false, no matter what.

And so if the universe cannot come to existence without a God or a creator entity, then also any God whatsoever cannot come to existence without a God or a creator entity bringing him to existence as well.

If any God could exist since ever, on its own, without having been created or caused by anything else whatsoever, then so could the universe and anything in it exist or have been existing since ever without having been created or caused by anything else outside of or distinct from the universe and whatever that’s in it.

And so the argument that the universe can’t exist without having been caused or created by an uncaused cause or an uncreated creator does not prove the existence of any god whatsoever, because if a God can exist or come to existence without being or having been caused or created, then the universe as well can exist and can come to existence without being or having been caused or created as well.

If any God requires a cause or a creator to come to existence, then the same could be said about the universe and everything that exists or can exist inside this universe as well, no matter what.

If the universe or anything else whatsoever that is inside this universe needs to be created in order to be able to come to existence, then anything that can create any of the above will also require a creator in order to be able to come to existence as well.

If a creator of the universe must have been created by another entity that is uncaused, uncreated, and is other than, separate from, distinct from, and is outside of this acclaimed (or supposed) creator of the universe, then the universe and anything whatsoever that is in it can’t come to existence without having been created by another entity or a creator that is uncaused, uncreated, and is other than, distinct from, and outside of the currently existing universe as well.

If any of such gods that don’t need to be created in order for them to come to existence actually exists, or can actually exist, then so can the currently existing universe and anything whatsoever that exists inside of it come to existence without needing to be created or without needing a creator in order to be able to come to existence.

Any attempt to make a single entity creator of the universe an exception for or from anything whatsoever will eventually and inevitably backfire miserably.

If a god that could’ve created the universe can exist without a creator and without having been created by an uncreated creator (or a created creator) and without having been caused by an uncaused cause (or a caused cause), then so could the currently existing universe come to existence (and exist and keep existing) without a creator and without having been created by an uncreated creator (or a created creator) and without having been caused by an uncaused cause (or a caused cause).

If nothing can by itself alone create itself, and so the universe couldn’t have by itself alone created itself, then also even a god couldn’t exist without being caused and even a god could never have come to existence without being caused or created by another cause or creator other than himself (this particular god). If everything requires a creator to exist, then who created the creator? If not everything requires a creator to exist, then god could exist without a creator, and so does the universe (the universe also could come to existence without being created by any god whatsoever or any entity whatsoever other than the universe itself (this isn’t to say that the universe created itself, but this is to say that there was no creator of the universe that did create the universe while this creator of the universe is not part of or is not inside the universe, that is, the universe wasn’t created by an entity that is outside the universe and is not part of the universe and is distinct from the universe and is not inside the universe. This does not necessarily mean that the universe instead was created by itself or by an entity that is inside the universe or is not distinct from the universe or is not outside the universe or is a part of the universe)), and the universe also could exist and come to existence and keep existing without being caused by something else that is other than the universe itself and/or outside of and distinct from the universe itself.

And so the impossibility of the universe existing and/or coming into existence without being created by an uncreated creator that is distinct from and is outside of and is other than the universe itself is true and right and correct only if the impossibility of any god whatsoever existing without being created by an uncreated creator that is distinct from and is outside of and is other than this particular god himself is true and right and correct.

And the impossibility of the universe existing and/or coming into existence without being caused by an uncaused cause that is outside of and is distinct from and is other than the universe itself is true and right and correct only if the impossibility of any god whatsoever existing without being caused by an uncaused cause that is outside of and is distinct from and is other than this particular god himself is true and right and correct.

And so the universe cannot exist without a god if any god whatsoever cannot exist without any other god or creator of him (of this god) as well.

If any god could exist on his/her own without having been created or caused by anything else then so could the universe exist without having been created or caused by anything else. So the argument that the universe can’t exist without being caused or created by an uncaused cause or an uncreated creator does not prove the existence of any god whatsoever, because if a god can exist without being caused or created, then the universe as well can exist and can come to existence without being caused or created.

Any of the gods that are possible to exist require an uncaused cause or an uncreated creator that is other than and is distinct from and is outside of any particular god of the gods that are possible to exist in order for them to exist or else they would be impossible to exist if the universe requires an uncaused cause or an uncreated creator that is other than and is distinct from and is outside of the universe in order for the universe to exist, which means that they (any of these gods that are possible to exist) require an uncreated creator that is other than and is distinct from and is outside of any particular god of the gods that are possible to exist and they (any of these gods that are possible to exist) require an uncaused cause that is other than and is distinct from and is outside of any particular god of the gods that are possible to exist for them to come to exist if the currently existing universe did require an uncreated creator that is other than and is distinct from and is outside of the currently existing universe to exist and to come into existence and/or just as the currently existing universe did require an uncaused cause that is other than and is distinct from and is outside of the currently existing universe to exist and to come into existence.

A creator of the universe must have been created by another entity that is uncaused and is uncreated and is other than and is distinct from and is outside of this acclaimed (or supposed) creator of the universe if the universe can’t come to existence without having been created by another entity (a creator) that is uncaused and is uncreated and is other than and is distinct from and is outside of the currently existing universe.

If any of the gods that are possible to exist – without being caused by an uncaused cause that is other than and is distinct from and is outside of any of these gods that are possible to exist and without being created by an uncreated creator or a created creator that is other than and is distinct from and is outside of any of these gods that are possible to exist – actually does exist, this god does not have to be the uncaused cause that has created the currently existing universe because the currently existing universe can come to existence without being caused by an uncaused cause that is other than and is distinct from and is outside of the currently existing universe and the currently existing universe can come to existence without being created by an uncreated creator or a created creator that is other than and is distinct from and is outside of the currently existing universe, just as this (particular) god has come to existence without being caused by an uncaused cause that is other than and is distinct from and is outside of this (particular) god that is possible to exist and just as this (particular) god has come to existence without being created by an uncreated creator that is other than and is distinct from and is outside of this (particular) god that is possible to exist.